selfish you say remember when i started this thread i clearly stated not to mention anything sourcecode related because it was detracting from the main goal of why the thread was started in the first place.but i left you to it,not exactly selfish. also most coders left the scene coz a lot of them felt they had taken their projects as far as they could. most of the secrets were handed down,freakdave,xport,hk$,+T+...... they all released their sourcecode. surreaall64 works a lot better than most people think,but their wasnt going to be a version2.0 as the author felt he couldnt take it much further(freakdave).tell you what though he did a great job. the scene will continue.