PhilExile

We have stray cats in my neighborhood as well . . . I wish someone would 'take care' of them. (not a fan of feral cats)

The Extron Emotia takes the 480p signal and converts it to 240p. If you are getting scanlines from the XBOX under 480i, its because the image is interlaced and the TV is refreshing a bit slowly. 240p is a stable signal, unlike interlaced. Check out this site for more information: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/ Its explained very well there. I thought that 480p was ED, not SD but I'm known to be an idiot with this stuff.. I get some scan lines from the cheepo 480i SD TV I bought super cheep. I wonder how that compares to adding the Extron in the mix.

I've been using the X-Arcade trackball - not to mention spinner dial* - with CoinOps for a few years now. Is mouse input supported in FBL? * - http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.p...products_id=268

Looks very interesting, Ace, thanks!

Rock on, Fu!

Madmab, How difficult would it be to add a PNG overlay, with an adjustable opacity? Thanks for chiming in.

XBOX - Mednafenx-NES 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia REDUX By turning up the peak on my VGA switch, I was able to sharpen the image. Now the image is on par with the Wii's Virtual Console emulator - the gold standard in my opinion. Not bad for a 10 year old console.

This actually looks pretty F'n cool! Ace, do you have download links for the regular Budwin edition or is this just available via torrent?

Ha, no where! I determined with this new round of test that my previous experiment with SUPER STAR WARS on Snes9x was flawed. I had 10x11 pixel ratio turned on by mistake on my SDTV, Sony PVM setup. Basically, you can mimic the 'look' of SNES/NES games with your Xbox emulators on either SD or HDTVs. Just for clarity: SDTV Setup - Buy an Extron Emotia | See here for more details: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/ - Buy either a Frosty VGA cable, YUV -> VGA converter, or build your own VGA cable - Set your dash/emulator to 480p - Set your emulator to 'perfect pixel' size - i.e. 512x448 - Once everything is hooked up, stretch the horizontal size of the picture to the maximum on the Emotia - Flip the interlacing switch on the front of the Emotia to activate 240p HDTV Setup - Buy an SLG3000* - Buy a YUV -> VGA coverter (I've had spotty luck with the Frosty cable on modern HDTVs) - Set your dash/emulator to 480p - Set your emulator to 'perfect pixel' size - i.e. 512x448 - Set the pixel mode to 10x11 - On your TV, set the video mode to stretch to fill the screen. This is different on every TV, but you are basically taking the 4:3 signal from the Xbox and scaling it to fill the 16:9 viewing area of the TV * The SLG3000 (& VGA converter) wouldn't be necessary if scanlines were built into the emulator. I *think* this is planned for the next release of SNES9x by Madmab. Enjoy!

Exactly. Gasp! Ya, this does look pretty good actually, but it should always be scaled proportionally, otherwise, things look goofy - like the SONIC 2 two-player portions: It exists on the Xbox, you just need to work to get it. SD = Extron Emotia, HD = 10x11 pixel mode + stretch function + SLG3000. This creates an image that is consistent with what the real hardware output. Right, if you use the filters, this hides the distortion. I actually think the filters are pretty good for the most part - except for those ones that smooth out the pixels in weird ways. Shudder: Righto!

Also, I noticed last night that I had 10x11 pixel mode activated on my PVM setup. This is why the PVM screenshot was too thin! Cos, I hear what you are saying. People do crazy things to attain better image quality. Just look at the NES RGB mod: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.0

I don't see the point. It would introduce pixel distortion (probably on visible when the screen is moving) and bilinear would need to be turned on to mask it.

LAST ONES - The Pole I thought this was interesting because of the texture that is created in the pole at the end of a Mario level by composite output. We can also take a look at Blaarg's NTSC filter - Composite compared to the real composite output on the same monitor. NES - 240p, Composite XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia - BLAARG'S NTSC FILTER - COMPOSITE It looks pretty good, but its not 100% spot on. Though, I think you can tweak this filter to your liking. Also, the video output quality may vary from NES to NES. WII - 240p, Component XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia XBOX - Nestopia 480i, Component XBOX - Nestopia 480i, S-Video That is all.

CLOSEUPS NES - 240p, Composite WII - 240p, Component XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia XBOX - Nestopia 480i, Component XBOX - Nestopia 480i, S-Video

Hello, I had a chance to do some comparison shots of the NES favorite, Super Mario Bros. See below for the interesting results. Note: I only did SD tests for this round. I may add HDTV versions later. Please make sure to click on each screen to view it full size. NES - 240p, Composite The original hardware. Note: The blue sky continues on the right side of the screen. WII - 240p, Component Wii Virtual Console in action. I was actually surprised about how saturated the image was. However, upon closer inspection it looks like the right values, just bumped up a lot. XBOX - Nestopia 240p, Frosty VGA Cable -> Extron Emotia The color values here aren't quite as saturated and I sorta prefer this to the Virtual Console. The image isn't quite as sharp here either, however, this is probably due to my having the 'peak' set to minimum on my VGA switch - so this could be sharper. Also, the Extron Emotia has a horizontal stretch dial that can increase the default image size. This works better than I thought. When looking at these images, I can barely tell the difference - width wise - between this and the Virtual Console version. (Another reason to get an Emotia) XBOX - Nestopia 480i, Component Standard component output here. It actually looks pretty good, but the image is fluttery due to it being 480i. Colors are nice and bright. The only downside here is that the 512 image width is apparent. The picture isn't too great, just focus on the lower portion of the image. XBOX - Nestopia 480i, S-Video Standard s-video output here. Again, the image looks really good, but the colors are a lot less vibrant. (More noticeable in person) (Continues....)

Hi T, Well, the Genesis output is rubbish, but the programers used this rubbish output and combined it with dithering to create effects that the Genesis was incapable of doing on its own - doing more with less basically. Hooking the Xbox up with composite may give you different results. First of all, are you hooking it up to an SD or HDTV? If its an HD, the display will likely upscale and filter the 480i signal being output. Also, since your using composite, your only going to get 480i and not 240p, which is how these games were actually output on the original hardware. Additionally, I think the XBOX's composite output isn't as 'dirty' as old hardware like the Genesis or PCE. This is a reason why I really like Blaarg's NTSC filters. They aren't perfect, but they are pretty damn close to making games look as they did. I do like the crisp look of RGB with scanlines most of the time though, personally.

Not always, the NES has good, sharp composite output. Its just a matter of opinion. I actually prefer the colors from a NES composite signal to an RGB. It wasn't just a comparison between 1080p and 480p in terms of emulation. My first post I didn't even touch an Xbox. It was just to show that Xbox is enough and you don't need 1080 or even 720p for these old games.

I'm going to experiment some more and see what I can figure out. I may also do NES comparisons sometime this week. Also, here are two other newer RGB/Composite comparison pages from Chris Covell's site: http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare.html & http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare2.html

Very interesting. By the way, what the heck does 'soften' do? I've never been able to discern a difference whether its on or off.

OK, thanks, Cos. I wonder if there is another way to somehow stretch the image, almost like the opposite CoinOps's widescreen fix. What I'm thinking is: 1. You set the boundaries of your monitor's video - just like CoinOps/MAME, instead of creating a perfect pixel setup (512x448) 2. Set every game to automatically scale by x2 for 480p, x3 for 720p and center on the screen 3. There could then be an option to stretch the screen based on the user defined screen boundaries Example: (512) screen width size / (610) defined screen size = percentage to stretch horizontally (8.4%) Although, this too may lead to distortions in the image. Its all hypothetical and I don't know anything about programming, so please take this with a grain of salt.

Never say never, T. I was just thinking about 10x11 pixel mode. Basically, that mode compresses the screen by (I think) outputing pixels that are taller than they are wider. Would it be possible to reverse this, in effect creating a 11x10 pixel mode? With this new mode the pixels would be wider than they were tall, thus helping with the black bar issue. What do you think?

I know from working with these games on a PVM, that unless you set the horizontal size 'perfectly' there will be a distortion. For instance, when I tried to set a game like SALAMANDER to stretch to fill the screen through the emulator and go beyond 512 pixels - you will see these 'waves' that your ship will fly through. Its almost like a wrinkle in the screen. I'm not denying that in the arcade this game is stretched edge-to-edge most of the time. However, I think this is similar to the NES/SNES were there was something in the hardware that acted like an upscaler in some ways. It wasn't something that was specific to the CRT technology - as far as I know. The best thing (and I don't know if this is possible) would be to build a second pass scale into an emulator. For instance: 1. You set your perfect pixel screen size or just set it to double the pixel size of the arcade rom - 256x224 becomes 512x448 2. Set your TV's resolution to 4:3 in the preferences 3. When you launch the game, the emulator scales the image to 640x448 to fit your screen* *I believe this is what BSNES does. Yes, I know. I play a lot of MS. PAC-MAN, T. I actually have a PVM set on its side for vertical games only. The SUPER MARIO WORLD is a great example. Again, I'm not arguing with what you are saying. Its just the way these emulators are built, if you don't find the 'perfect pixel' width - there is distortion introduced. There must be a way to stretch the image horizontally, after its been set, to fill the screen. Talk soon PS - I still plan on doing 'research' at the bar/arcade. Don't try to stop me, T!

I'm not so sure about that. However, I'm willing to do some field work. There is a bar/arcade near me that has a good variety of games to chose from. I'll snap a few picts and then compare them to the Xbox output on my PVM. OK, I'll check it out and let you know.

After you learn about this stuff, it makes sense. I was confused the first time I read Fudoh's site too.

Yes, at least for NES and SNES - I haven't messed with the other systems. Also, you have to be using a CRT SD television. The SNES9x and Nestopia ports also support 240p, but I think you need to change the output settings to native I think. It can be done. The only drawback to the Xbox is its inability to output 240p. At one point, there were people trying to write a custom BIOs to enable the hardware to do this, but it never happened. Its possible the video hardware just made it impossible. This can be overcome by using an Extron Emotia and outputting 480p. Every system is different. The NES and SNES weird output is what causes issues. For HD, it can be sidestepped, but SD users need something added that affects the video output after the 'perfect pixel' setting has been entered. This isn't as much of an issue for a system like the Genesis that has a resolution of 320x224. This is easily doubled to 640x448 - so there isn't a 'black bars' issue. Arcade machines are a whole other animal. For the most part, their native resolution is how they were displayed in the arcade. However, there are always exceptions. This is why I'm always pushing for perfect pixel, T. Without that functionality, the scanlines don't line up right and everything looks blurry. Right, it also makes everything look sharper. I remember trying out the emulators at 1080i on my brother-in-law's HDTV years back and it was really jarring how BIG all the pixels were. The scanlines fix this. I can't imagine that adding scanlines would impact the performance much. I believe some of the filters are basically PNGs that are overlayed on top of the game. Ya, that site is awesome. Also, Fudoh's mini-sites are very informative. Its how I learned about all this stuff: http://www.hazard-city.de/ I may do a picture comparison for the NES too that would show a game output via: 1. A real NES to a PVM (240p) via composite 2. Nestopia/Mednafenx through the Xbox/Emotia to a PVM (240p) - Black bars will be present 3. Nestopia/Mednafenx through the Xbox/SLG3000 to an HDTV (480p) - This will match a real NES for the most part, but there are very slight differences in the way games are displayed. 4. Wii VC NES game to a PVM (240p) via component (YUV) - Again, this will be the same as a real NES, but there may be some difference since VC is emulation too. 5. Wii VC NES game to an HDTV (480p) with the SLG3000 Let me know if you have any questions.