No plans for conscription in the US, huh?

[Lucandrake]

Well, im 14, so I don't have to worry for about 5 months to regester for this crap because down here the regstriction, you get it at 15, a year later your allowed to regester for the license, easy sytem that I like and adore from other states were you need to be like 17? Well, I just hope bush gets off office and fast, I don't like him there, he scares the living crap out of me...

[random guy]

Jesus, I thought that that method of recruiting was disguisting enough, but take a look at this: http://www.snopes.com/military/icecream.htm

 

The selective service is flockED UP!

Edited December 17, 2004 by random guy

[Daeval]

Jesus, I thought that that method of recruiting was disguisting enough, but take a look at this: http://www.snopes.com/military/icecream.htm

 

The selective service is flockED UP!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

More paranoia. Granted, the paranoia was a little more warranted, since the last draft was much more recent in 1984.

 

Like it or not, registering for selective service is required by law when you're 18. If your parents are citizens, they probably knew this when you were born. They sealed your fate.

 

If there is a publicly traded list available, such as the one for rent through that information broker, I see no problem whatsoever with the government using that information. If "charlie's chewing gum" could pay the fee and get the ice cream shop's list and start sending you ads, why the hell shouldn't the government be able to pay the fee and send you reminders of your legal obligation to register? There's no big brother crap going on here, the government paid the same fee to get the same thing anyone else could have gotten.

 

The crime here is with the information broker. First of all, its very existance is a crime to anyone who's ever gotten junkmail. Second of all, they were the ones that gave Farrel's list to the gov. without Farrel's permission in the first place. They are the ones who acted out of line.

 

Who cares where a 17 year old's selective service reminder came from? So what if it was an ice cream list? It's not like they were posting propoganda in the ice cream shop. They weren't sending drill seargents door to door to teach kids how to shoot an M16. They weren't pulling grade schoolers out of class to go to boot camp. They were sending teenagers a reminder to fulfill their legal obligation, just as everybody has to. Frankly, I'd rather get the reminder before hand than jail time should I forget.

 

 

 

Let's put it this way.. Do I agree with the selective service system? No, I think it's useless and archaic. Our professional volunteer army is MUCH more effective than the cannon fodder we would get out of any draft these days, and it's a waste of time, money, and morale. Do I think spreading fear and paranoia is the right way to handle it? Not only no, but hell no. As far as I'm concerned, people with that attitude can just get the hell out of the country, and Michael Moore can captain the ship. Complacency is an evil, but sowing seeds of fear is just as poisonious. This country desperately needs positive, reasonable, courageous, altruistic and forward-thinking leaders, not an army of paranoid, clueless rebels.

[random guy]

For christ's sake man, ANY link between signing up to get free ice-cream and being forced to spend time in the army is AN ABSOLUTE TRAVESTY. I don't care if people "have" to sign up, if they "had" to sign up then there are much more practical (and ethical) ways of reaching these people than from getting their names and addresses from a list of people interested in an ice-cream promotion!

If this thing was so necessary, as you claim, then why aren't there official channels that can be used here? If a thing is mandatory, than it should generally be unavoidable. Why is the army resorting to tricking people interested in getting their driver's license, or even interested in FREE ICE-CREAM?

If signing up to selective service is so mandatory, why don't the Government simply use the census to find people under 18? It doesn't make the first lick of sense to me (pun intended).

[Daeval]

Cute pun..

 

If this thing was so necessary, as you claim, then why aren't there official channels that can be used here?

First of all, I never said it was necessary for our government or our country in any way. As I said in my previous post, we'd probably be better off as a nation WITHOUT the selective service system. However, as things currently stand, registering for selective service is a necessity for YOU AS A CITIZEN. Whether you like it or not, it's not something anyone needs to claim. It's a law. If you do not do it, you may legally be thrown in jail.

 

And think about your "official channels" comment for a minute... What official channel would you suggest they use? Should they just have birth certificates submitted when a child is born? Should they gather their information from their grade schools? Would that be any less offensive? The census bureau can't do it because 1) they don't have everybody's specific information and 2) they aren't legally allowed to give out personal information, even to government branches.

 

 

And you nailed it right on the head... Right here:

Why is the army resorting to tricking people

That's just it. Nobody's tricking anybody here. Well, except for the Information Broker. If the government had secretly hired ice cream shops to take the names of kids and then turned around and given the kids something they weren't expecting... THAT would be tricking them.

 

As it is, the kids didn't get anything they shouldn't have been expecting, and the government didn't pull any strings to get the list of names. The Ice Cream shop was tricked by the Information Broker, because they thought they were going to have a say in who gets their list and they didn't. The government was ALSO tricked by the information broker, in that the government thought they were getting a legal list, and the Information Broker didn't bother telling them it wasn't legal. The kids may also have been tricked, by the Ice Cream shop, who didn't bother telling the kids that their names and addresses would be on a list that was available for sale. The government, however, didn't pull any tricks whatsoever.

 

For christ's sake man, ANY link between signing up to get free ice-cream and being forced to spend time in the army is AN ABSOLUTE TRAVESTY.

Again, this is the power of emotion as an argument in action. There is no Cause-Effect relationship between wanting free ice-cream and being forced to go to war. It sounds powerful because you think "ooh, cute innocent kids go to get ice cream and get told they have to go kill people" but the truth of the matter is that it's 17 year olds, who should already know what they need to do, getting simple reminders that they need to submit their name and address. Whether or not they ever desired ice cream before in their entire life, the outcome is exactly the same.

 

 

All I'm saying is, as a country, let's make our argument with the plentiful facts and reason, and not with spin-doctored stories like this one.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Daeval

[random guy]

It's not a spin-doctored story. It's a true story about the Government using forms people signed only to get free ice-cream, to get them to sign up for the selective service system. The government, whether or not they knew that the ice-cream company knew that they had bought the list, knew that the list came from a free ice-cream promotion. As for your specific points:

1. Yes, you keep on claiming that it is MANDATORY to sign up for the selective service system. I think that mandatory is a pretty damn good synonym for necessary. Whether or not you think it is necessary is irrelevent: if it is mandatory, it is a NECESSARY step in being an American citizen.

2. Legal or not, it's the most immoral thing I've heard in a long time, as they knew where the numbers came from.

And

3. If people who signed up to get free ice-cream then got a letter reminding them to sign up for ss, a letter that without the free ice-cream list they'd otherwise NEVER HAVE RECIEVED, and those people then got sent to war, than that to me counts as a DIRECT LINK between a free ice-cream list and being sent to war.

 

And now consider this - in Australia voting is mandatory. If you don't vote you can get fined or even sent to jail in the worst case scenario. The government here does a pretty good job of sending out enrollment forms to people who are about to turn 18 - if we can manage to form a system to contact coming-of-age teens with forms they must fill out after they turn 18, without resorting to buying lists from ice-cream promotions, why can't you?

Edited December 17, 2004 by random guy

[Daeval]

It's not a spin-doctored story. It's a true story about the Government using forms people signed only to get free ice-cream, to get them to sign up for the selective service system.

 

This article has you spinning with it, and missing the point. They aren't using the ice cream to get anyone to do anything. The ice cream has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not they will eventually sign up for ss. The spin on the story is that there is some connection between wanting free ice cream and getting sent to war, when the fact of the matter is that there is not. If they are 17 turning 18 and male, THEY WILL SIGN UP, ice cream be damned. That's why it doesn't matter where they got the list. In fact, it doesn't even matter if the government ever sent them a letter. THEY WILL SIGN UP for ss either way. Should we not focus on THAT, the one true aspect of horror in this story?

 

 

1. Yes, you keep on claiming that it is MANDATORY to sign up for the selective service system. I think that mandatory is a pretty damn good synonym for necessary. Whether or not you think it is necessary is irrelevent: if it is mandatory, it is a NECESSARY step in being an American citizen.

Ok, in that case you're right. As it stands under our current legal situation, it is mandatory and necessary for you, as a citizen, to sign up for selective service when you turn 18. If you fail to do so, you may be fined ridiculous amounts of money or imprisoned for several years when you, for example, try to renew your drivers license or apply for college. However, you keep implying that this is my opinion. This is not my opinion, this is fact. I don't like it either, but this is the law in my country.

 

2. Legal or not, it's the most immoral thing I've heard in a long time, as  they knew where the numbers came from.

Again, see the first paragraph in this post. How is it immoral? The government, with its ice cream list, did not do a single thing to change the fate of these kids IN ANY WAY. The government did not use the list to track down draft-dodgers, and it didn't start picking the ice-cream kids first for a draft.

 

3. If people who signed up to get free ice-cream then got a letter reminding them to sign up for ss, a letter that without the free ice-cream list they'd otherwise NEVER HAVE RECIEVED, and those people then got sent to war, than that to me counts as a DIRECT LINK between a free ice-cream list and being sent to war.

 

You're still missing the point here. The "letter" does not matter. When you turn 18 as a United States citizen, if you have a censor, you have a legal obligation to register for selective service.

 

Now, unless you mean that maybe they could have avioded registering if the government hadn't used the ice cream list.... My response to that is twofold...

 

First, no way. There are plenty of other ways to get names, the government doesn't stop with ice cream lists, and as soon as you get a drivers license or legal ID, the government knows you exist. Furthermore, you could never apply to college, and quite possibly you couldn't go to High School either. The only reason the fake kid would have avoided ss is because HE DIDN'T EXIST outside the ice-cream shop.

 

Second, if all the neighborhood kids have to sign up for this wretched fact of life in our country, your kid has to sign up too, or get the hell out of the country. You don't like that? Then flocking change it! But don't hide from it and claim to have any valid say in the matter, they might throw you in jail.

 

 

And now consider this - in Australia voting is mandatory. If you don't vote you can get fined or even sent to jail in the worst case scenario. The government here does a pretty good job of sending out enrollment forms to people who are about to turn 18 - if we can manage to form a system to contact coming-of-age teens with forms they must fill out after they turn 18, without resorting to buying lists from ice-cream promotions, why can't you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, how DO they get their lists?

 

Second, I would hope my country wouldn't waste even MORE money on the archaic selective service ritual, which would be required to get an official system in place for names. As it is, they're starting to use an official source that's already in place - the DMV. Is that what you were hoping for?

[Cominus]

This is old. You actually like sign up for this whenever you register to vote...oh no, the major up in my rotc said that you were supposed to actually go to like the post office and like fill out a form when you're 18 for the selective service act. This really isn't new, stop harrsing us americans, it'z ok if you're jealous but you don't have to hate.

 

This country gives us alot and for us to not return the favor is immoral. Yeah bush is making alot of garbage but it'z already like been over a year since the war started, get over it, we're already in too deep so just mind your business and let us finish the mess we started.

 

Oh yeah and I remember something about the major saying that something about if people got like drafted or something and they went into canada that the government and canada had like some agreement that they could go into canada and like get the people who had ran off or whatever so yeah, no more running buddy...

[random guy]

I still can't believe that I'm arguing with someone that it's not okay for the army to solicit names of kids from free ice-cream lists! How can anyone think that that is okay?

I was NOT implying that it was your "opinion" that SS service is mandatory. And besides which, it very much isn't mandatory. If it was mandatory then the kids of all the rich, or the kids of congressmen, would be forced to sign up, and we both know that the rich and congressmen's children very very rarely go to war (look at Bush Jr for example).

Your country can't have it both ways, but that's what the people of influence are trying to do - it's "Selective Service" because they want a way so that the poor kids all have to sign up for military service, but the rich still won't have to. THAT'S why it's not "mandatory", THAT'S why the government resorts to using ice-cream lists, THAT'S why they're using DMV lists - because that way they can "Selectively" choose people from only low-income areas to "mandatorily" sign up.

Again, I can't believe that ANYONE thinks this is okay!

[Cominus]

Um...you see there's this little factor, and that factor is called money, and this money, it talks, really it does. There is infact one son of a congress man that is/was serving in Iraq, so therefore this whole maditory I don't know what you're talking about thing is like blown out the water sorta, kinda, not really. You see congress have money to like not have thier kids in the war. This money or political power that they obtain they can pretty much do whatever they want. Yes it's complicated and unethical but hey what can you do? You think america is like a a pure democracy? Well it's not. It's an indirect one, where we choose people that choose people, and currption and this and that but whatever. Shyt if I had a choice I'd vote for you to be president since you have like all the answers, well maybe you don't but you seem like an honest person, or do you have skeletons in your closet? You see no one really knows, kinda the same way in politics. It's the same way with the admins and stuff around here. They could like banned somebodys IP and like nobody would know if it wasn't for like E-mail or IM. They pretty much control everything and if one of them like break a rule or whatever they could maybe get away with it if they are close enough with another moderator. It's tough I know, but onto elction 2008.

[Sturmvogel]

First of all, I never said it was necessary for our government or our country in any way. As I said in my previous post, we'd probably be better off as a nation WITHOUT the selective service system. However, as things currently stand, registering for selective service is a necessity for YOU AS A CITIZEN. Whether you like it or not, it's not something anyone needs to claim. It's a law. If you do not do it, you may legally be thrown in jail.

 

All male residents who legally reside in the U.S. must register for SS.

What it all boils down to, as I said previously, is that the U.S. govt believes that a national pool of able bodied men is needed in case of a national emergency.

 

I think what we should be worried about is the back dorr draft for those already enlisted. Not the stop loss orders being issued by the military, but the calling up of individuals who have served their enlisment and dischared themselves. Yet the military has ordered them back, regardless of the fact that they'er terms are up and they have a contract that staes this.