Pakistan's opposition leader Benazir Bhutto assassinated

[alexis]

well i apologise because i didnt got it right the first time, it is not religion's fault, it is not bad to believe in something else, the crap here are people using religion and faith as tools or excuses, all of us who live in occident are mainly christians and we have been involved in slaughters in the name of god and what not but if you read the bible it clearly says you shall not kill

 

hopefully with the communication advantages we have nowadays we will all grew more and more open minded and it will be not so easy to control us with bullshit

 

but as I said before I believe it is a matter of power, there is always a weak side and a strong side, what would happen if the weak side was the strong side instead? they would probably behave the same way, abusing of its power

[Shoma]

I hope atheists argue themselves to death so i (we) don't have to hear anymore of their I know everything and your wasting your time.

 

yeah and I hope people get a flocking clue and realize that religion (ESPECIALLY Christianity/Judaism/Islam) is all bullshit. Luckily that's happening right now...

 

According to the American Religious Identification Survey, conducted by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, the share of American adults who do not subscribe to any religion increased from 8 percent in 1990 to more than 14 percent — about 30 million people — in 2001.

 

(source: Washington Times)

 

so yeah, I'd say give humanity a thousand more years or two and religion will become obsolete. :­)

It's true iggnorance when one doesnt realize any tart can mass kill anyone.... Religous or not....

I rather not waste a whole essay on how stupid ur little "Religion is the cause of wars" BS is. Corrupt pple will be everywhere.... Even using religion to make pple do horrible things....UR iggnorance is beyond reasoning; and it must be nice to just bash faith everytime, most likely becuz of some haunted past u had or w/e... You can blame Faith while nations also war over power and wealth.

 

On a diff note, Im curious as to why they dont want any help.... I m not sure but I doubt they trust the US officials. ALso since they dont want our help, is that just it for our part?

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

Religion should be a sum of teachings that would inspire you on your trip in life.

 

Most atheists are ignorant of that idea, and are sad people. Belief is a powerful thing my friends. Just, keep it to yourself.

 

On the other side, Pakistan's leadership (read: Pervez Musharaff) is actually supported by the U.S. because, believe it or not, he keeps Al-Qaida out of the country and away from those nasty nuclear warheads they made back when they were fighting over Kashmir against India who also has nuclear weapons as well, but Osama has no power there A shift in power might destabilize the country enough for terrorist infiltrators to attempt a hijack, however unlikely that sounds.

[Lucandrake]

This is off-topic , and this is towards AxL's 2nd line.

 

In middle school when I learned humans, wrote the bible, when I prayed for help and received, a pile of stinky poopi, and when I found out my priest was a hypocrite (a long with half of the priests in America), ok forget saying everything I found out let's just say ignorance left my body.

 

Well, soon after that, not being to believe in anything, I soon figured out emo was a part of my social behavior, it took a year just for the idea of "If I don't believe in anything, am I doomed to be in a world of darkness", so my first attempt was to find another religion, but then I figured out every religion in the world was made the same way the Christian religion (no offense to who ever you are here in the forum if your a guest fuck off) was with "Prophets" and "Events" being the instigators to the writings of books that were deeply followed. My second and current attempt, was to believe in myself, and that I control the events in my life, I inspire the accidents and the luck with my behavior, and that every day I must challenge myself in order to grow stronger as a person so that when I do happen to die, regret isn't an emotion being felt. So far being emo has left (unless the topic is a human thing Hint: My uncle just died) my daily life, and I would say I have all the benefits of a believer in Christ, without the ignorance of following something that happened (according to the books) nearly 2000 years ago.

[ken_cinder]

Religion is man's greatest plague. Nuff said.

[L.S.D]

I would have to differ here.

 

Religion is not man's greatest plague. Organised religion is the problem.

 

Allow me to share a very thoughtful insight from a Western COnvert writing to a blogger in Malaysia:

 

am writing you today as I have read 'Fruit From A Poisonous Tree Will Be Poisonous' and wanted to give you my take on the matter.

 

You ask, how can a good religion make people bad?

 

To answer this question we have to understand what religion is. Religion is man-made. If we look at the early generations of Muslims, the first two Caliphs for instance, we see a pretty just system. But from there it goes downhill. We have Muslim fighting Muslim, rules and regulations implemented based on frail human understanding and often with less than pious motives, and we see Muslims seeking power rather than Imaan.

 

Islam is no different from Judaism and Christianity in this respect – they have all lost their way as 'religions'. Faith is one of the most powerful motivators – it can lead men to murder, to corruption and to all sorts of horrific acts, and it is often used by tyrants to accomplish these things. But at the core of it is one human trait that we must always struggle to suppress and that is our desire to be better than others.

 

We all want notoriety and often 'religion' is used as a way of separating us, as making us think we are better than others, that we somehow are the 'chosen' ones. Look at the division within the Muslim Ummah and the fights over who is the 'saved sect'. Is there a man on earth who really knows for sure how to secure a sacred place in the hereafter?

 

I don’t think we can look at so-called religions for the answer. And with respect to the Muslims, we have to reject most of what we have been told as the rules and regulations have been handed down by dictators and rulers with their own agenda.

 

Islam has no Pope. As Muslims, our relationship with Allah is direct. Instead, we look to scholars and leaders as if they have some inside track to God. In Pakistan and Egypt, the Muslims kiss the hands of the Sheikhs, throw money at them and elevate their status. While surely we can gain knowledge from learned men, we need to filter out personal motives and validate so-called 'knowledge'.

 

Travelling the world as I have, I can tell you that Islam in Malaysia and Turkey, for instance, is drastically different. Look at Saudi Arabia as another example. Women there are not allowed to drive. Yet, in Islam, women are equal and are not restricted from working or achieving skills! Many cultural things have found their way into the 'truth'. How can that be when there is only one truth? I conclude that much 'truth' is man-made!

 

I have great compassion for your current situation having gone through a similar thing myself. The more I understand, the more I reject organised religion. It seems to me that we are focusing on man-made details while totally side-lining the source of faith.

 

The Quran is a book for all time, as are the other Holy Books. Yet Islam, today, is based more on Hadith and the life of the Prophet (pbuh), Fatwas, Islamic precedence, cultural traditions, etc., than on the Quran. Let’s face it – you can get a Fatwa to justify anything these days. If we find a ruling we don’t like, presto – we find a Sheikh who will endorse it. We really have to make sure that our own arrogance does not cloud our vision, and that is something I am constantly trying to keep in check.

 

In Malaysia, the situation is more complex as there are religious differences and a hefty amount of racism that magnifies the differences. You have so-called Muslim leaders using their position to condone their own behaviour and condemn those they choose. And they do this in the name of religion. But the obvious question is - where is the justice?

 

Allah said do not take the Christians and the Jews as (CLOSE) friends. This only makes sense – it’s logical. Ultimately, a different faith will eventually limit those relationships but that does not mean we must abuse Christians and Jews or that all of them are 'evil' – that goes against what Allah tells us in the Quran. Allah tells us to wage war against the OPPRESSORS within His LIMITS and to respect the People of the Book but somehow we let this get twisted by men with personal agendas.

 

Brother, as a Royal son of Selangor, I think you have your priorities upside down. You have worked tirelessly for your country and I know the country’s problems trouble you a great deal and you put a lot of effort into trying to instigate change. This, no doubt, is also partly expected of you. But you cannot condone bad Muslim behaviour because you are Muslim and you cannot turn a blind eye to Allah’s justice because of your patriotism.

 

The world map is changing even as we speak and there is no guarantee that Malaysia, as we know it, will even remain. We need to hold onto those things that pass the test of time like divine truth and justice even if it makes us unpopular. Working tirelessly at deciphering truth will reap much greater rewards for mankind and in the hereafter.

 

I no longer take what other Muslims tell me as truth. I too am at the stage of my life where I see hypocrisy everywhere and, for me, I don’t buy a lot of the interpretations of Islam as they are now presented. I come back to the Quran and the guiding principles and contemplate these at the source. That often puts me at odds with other Muslims but I really think we must each travel our own path to truth. Is this not the purpose of life?

 

Faith is an individual journey, not a 'religion', and Allah gave us a brain, a conscience and freewill to choose right from wrong. I think we must focus internally before we act externally and we must be cautious that we don’t get caught up in the politics of the day or 'religious' trends that will be long gone tomorrow. Faith is not a coat we put on and instantly we are pious. We must come to know that we know that we know. It's a learning process.

 

There will never be peace without justice. We need to stand on the side of justice whether that is with the Muslims or non-Muslims, believers or unbelievers. We are so busy sweating the details that we often miss the real truth. We know deep down what is right as long as we let Allah be our guide, and once we are at peace with what is right, we need to act. Knowledge is useless unless we use it. We need to get our eye off men and onto Allah because with Allah we have hope, guidance and mercy and with man, our future is futile.

 

You are a very blessed individual brother. Allah tests those He loves – often relentlessly. It seems to me you have reached the point that Allah is requiring you to make a choice. Love of your country or love of Him. That does not mean that you will not be able to help your country nor does it mean that you have to stand with the so-called Muslims who are using Islam for their own purposes. Allah is asking you to put Him first. Our requirement is only to submit and leave the outcome to Him and let us never underestimate His capability. He’s got you covered!

 

That’s my two bits brother.

 

May Allah help and guide us. Ameen.

 

Wa salam.

Now, this is what i called a true religion practiser.

[Ahmad89]

 

There will never be peace without justice. We need to stand on the side of justice whether that is with the Muslims or non-Muslims, believers or unbelievers. We are so busy sweating the details that we often miss the real truth. We know deep down what is right as long as we let Allah be our guide, and once we are at peace with what is right, we need to act. Knowledge is useless unless we use it. We need to get our eye off men and onto Allah because with Allah we have hope, guidance and mercy and with man, our future is futile.

Now, this is what i called a true religion practiser.

This is what people need to understand more. So as long as people everywhere dont have justice, we wont have peace. As silly as it might sound to you, if we are not willing to change our own self, Allah (GOD) will not change the country for the better.

 

As for what Davis was saying, you said that all religions are based from the same thing, prophets and what not. You cant simply state that all religions are wrong without having done your research. When you read a history book, then read one from a different author, they might be wrong in one thing or another. The bible was written by man, i agree. But not islam. Humans wrote the book after they have heard it from prophet muhammed (pbuh) from the angel gabriel from god. If it sounds silly to you, then you have not done your research.

 

I cant say that athiests are stupid because every other kid that i see cuts himself. In my high school, thats all i see them talk about, cutting themselves or getting high and sleeping with a dozen girls or guys. If this is your definition of a civilized nation, then the hell with it. Id rather be a muslim all my life. BUT, i dont believe that all athiests are like that. Some are just crazy or mest up in the head. If you choose to be close minded, its your life. I cant force you to change your way of life. But i will not sit and watch you bad mouth my religion, or any religion in which you are wrong about (a statement i say not to you but people all over the world).

 

I used to watch the news and read the newspaper and all i would see is how much the muslims killed. This would make any person believe that our religion is wrong. They here from school or thier preists that we were a violent religion not knowing that priests ordered people to kill innocent men woman and children. Every year there are more muslim men, woman and children that die from bombs in Palestine, Iraq and other countries. But you have never heard of "50 children die from a bomb in west bank". Maybe once or twice but that doesnt click with people. After they heard of the millions of stuff that the muslims supposedly did, or really did, a person would say that hopefully they make a crater out of the middle east.

 

Sometimes i think to myself that what if all muslims werent muslims. If they were athiests, according to Reaper mans logic. Would it be peaceful. I dont think so. Its not the nature of some people to live in a two story house, married, a car and children. Some people want a whole country to themsleves. Others want the world etc. Its not religion ONLY that starts war. Its power, money, jealousy, and alot more.

[Lucandrake]

As for what Davis was saying, you said that all religions are based from the same thing, prophets and what not. You cant simply state that all religions are wrong without having done your research. When you read a history book, then read one from a different author, they might be wrong in one thing or another. The bible was written by man, i agree. But not islam. Humans wrote the book after they have heard it from prophet muhammed (pbuh) from the angel gabriel from god. If it sounds silly to you, then you have not done your research.

 

Sometimes i think to myself that what if all muslims werent muslims. If they were athiests, according to Reaper mans logic. Would it be peaceful. I dont think so. Its not the nature of some people to live in a two story house, married, a car and children. Some people want a whole country to themsleves. Others want the world etc. Its not religion ONLY that starts war. Its power, money, jealousy, and alot more.

 

TO the first paragraph, and I'm going to say this without being as insult full as possible because as of this moment I feel offended by your yell of ignorance at my face.

 

"As for what Davis was saying, you said that all religions are based from the same thing, prophets and what not."

 

This correct, but an understatement, more people then just prophets form religions, whether or not the goal of original creator was with good intention, it all comes down to one thing, blindly believing you are a lower being then that who has "put" you here on earth, and that doesn't flow with me.

 

" The bible was written by man, i agree. But not islam."

 

The only comment I have towards this line, is a big fat "LoL", reason being, you contradict yourself so I'm not even going to attack you for it, you did the job for me.

 

" Humans wrote the book after they have heard it from prophet muhammed (pbuh) from the angel gabriel from god. If it sounds silly to you, then you have not done your research. "

 

Do you know why this sounds silly to me? The only people in this world that have seen "angels" are high or drunk and don't realize the angel that's on top of them is really a fat unattractive human being until the next morning when they wake up and realize they have to go to work. Why should I believe in something that only a insane person would say, and if he isn't insane, and this really happen, what makes "pbuh" so special to have been the only guy to experience this? Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if "pbuh" wasn't real in the first place, give me power, and I will personally invite you to a lesson in the ways of "changing history".

 

 

Now, towards reapers belief of world-peace being true when all of us become athiests? Bullsh!t, human beings will always fight, it's our nature, you fight every day whether or not you want to believe it is up too you. The day we stop fighting is the day we all die.

[Ahmad89]

TO the first paragraph, and I'm going to say this without being as insult full as possible because as of this moment I feel offended by your yell of ignorance at my face.

 

"As for what Davis was saying, you said that all religions are based from the same thing, prophets and what not."

 

This correct, but an understatement, more people then just prophets form religions, whether or not the goal of original creator was with good intention, it all comes down to one thing, blindly believing you are a lower being then that who has "put" you here on earth, and that doesn't flow with me.

 

" The bible was written by man, i agree. But not islam."

 

The only comment I have towards this line, is a big fat "LoL", reason being, you contradict yourself so I'm not even going to attack you for it, you did the job for me.

 

" Humans wrote the book after they have heard it from prophet muhammed (pbuh) from the angel gabriel from god. If it sounds silly to you, then you have not done your research. "

 

Do you know why this sounds silly to me? The only people in this world that have seen "angels" are high or drunk and don't realize the angel that's on top of them is really a fat unattractive human being until the next morning when they wake up and realize they have to go to work. Why should I believe in something that only a insane person would say, and if he isn't insane, and this really happen, what makes "pbuh" so special to have been the only guy to experience this? Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if "pbuh" wasn't real in the first place, give me power, and I will personally invite you to a lesson in the ways of "changing history".

 

 

Now, towards reapers belief of world-peace being true when all of us become athiests? Bullsh!t, human beings will always fight, it's our nature, you fight every day whether or not you want to believe it is up too you. The day we stop fighting is the day we all die.

First of all, i wasnt yelling.

Second of all, i did not state any facts about your belief.

Third, if "you have not done your research" offended you, then you took it seriously. I did not mean that you are ignorant but more that you dont understand the whole idea. Ignorant means you "dont know", not "dont understand" or at least the way i was putting it.

 

Fourth: In response to your comments

 

If you are not willing to put yourself below your creator, thats up to you man.

 

How did i contradict myself. Without looking at your next comment, the difference between the bible and the quran is the bible was a couple people sitting down on a table and writting it, changing stuff and adding to it. While the quran was simply listening and writting. NO changing, NO adding. One book ONLY.

 

As for your next comment, if you are not willing to believe in anything other than human beings than so be it. I am not pulling or trying to pull your leg. Just trying to explain my point of view. Stating that all books were written by humans, i say that mine wasnt, whether you want to believe it or not. You were taught something and all i want to do is correct what your teacher had told you. The part where you have gone wrong in your research is that my book wasnt written by man (in the way i explained above). PLEASE, attack me, but not with a knife. I want to learn your point of view.

 

Again sorry you thought i was yelling. Only trying to learn

[Lucandrake]

Ahmad , (this is why I hate English it's near to impossible to type emotion unless giving a speech) what I meant by "yell of ignorance" was that you claim I have not done research, never actually meant "OMG HE'S TYPING IN CAPS", I like to emphasize and dramatize when I'm writing for real and not my usual IRC spacasm like "LOL DISO EATS COOKIES HE"S FRAT".

 

I would be more specific but I'm 30 minutes away from my test, to put this in simple terms.

 

I believe religion is flawed, there are to many dark holes in the origins (they all sound like legends and folklore when you don't hear them with the belief in mind, "This is it, this life, this is the answer"), and personally, I've always seen belief in the unreal as a sign of weakness (no offence).

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

Let me clarify what I meant for you Davis by quoting from L.S.D.

 

"Faith is an individual journey." I too refuse to adhere to organized religion too much. I have not read the Bible, nor plan to in the near future.

Understand that misfortune does not come from God/Allah, because he does not intervene, nor will he intervene to fix it for us. These are trials that we face as humans, that we must overcome, in order for us to evolve spiritually. Personally, I see people who blame religion for their misfortune as having missed the point of the lesson.

 

Belief is a strong power my friend, I just wish many of you could see this.

When I pray to God, very rarely I might add, I only pray for health for my family. That is the most important thing. Health. We have the power to do anything we wish. That is true power, and faith, alongside other things, is a powerful support to help us achieve our desires.

 

Unlike most Christians, I do not shun desire. I believe desire is a neutral driving force. Sadly, most people use this force to achieve evil or selfish goals. I try to channel this into achieving skills, and helping my family and friends.

 

"Faith is an individual journey" regardless of what faith you belong to.

 

Following your line of reasoning, people who wish to love and be loved are also weak, because they try to achieve something which isn't real but spiritual.

 

While I feel sad that you've missed the point of religion, so to speak, I will never indulge in trying to forcefully shove my beliefs unto you or anyone else because that would go against my principles, rules I set for myself in life with the aid of faith, common sense, and many other factors. Those who do that are however unsure and insecure of their faith and need other people to play along so they feel better about themselves and to back up their ideas. They too have missed the point of faith.

 

I hope my little rant helped you a bit