The Best Boxer Ever In a Game

[-VIOLENCE-]

Mike Bison

yap, mike bison will beat that bit up

 

and once shes T.K.O. i'll steal her trousers

[Weirdy]

err...yeah.... ...*steals Mike's gloves and socks Violencia in the jaw*

 

*whistel away innocently*

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

I'll have to play Tekken 1 again, but I remember his main moves always being forward-palm like.  It has been a while though.

 

And Goh uses Judo with the Atemi-waza (strikes) included, which are not typically taught to people who are learning for sport.  What he does is fairly accurate in that it's mostly reserved, designed to deliver what would be a quick warding blow or get the opponent off of you.  His highest kick that I can recall is just a lead-in into a takedown that would be over-powering if it was a single move.  His real damage dealers are his throws, which are accurate, with the exception of the incorporated Atemi-Waza (if you kneed someone in the gut before a Harai, you'd be out of any judo tournament).  I'm not sure about the technical accuracy of Goh's Atemi-waza, as I haven't learned them, but they are more fitting to the style of "practical" Judo than Paul's heavy strikes.

 

And yeah, Judo could be accurately represented in a fighting game.  However, the SPORT of Judo could not.  It is significantly different in that it is practiced to defeat other judokas who are aiming for the same thing: kazushi, throws, or pinning/chokes/locks.  That works better in a wrestling game.  Remember that Judo was originally developed as a general form of fighting, and also incorporated strikes and blocks.  It focused on grappling techniques because they were considered the most efficient ways to disable your opponent, but that doesn't mean they were the only options available.

Paul's moves in Tekken 1 weren't very judo, but that's what Namco said his fighting style was.

 

And no you couldn't put judo in a fighting game without adding some "out of place" striking attacks. Even a wrestling game would need some punchs and kicks.

Creating a character on a fighting game with ONLY throws and holds would be a terrible idea.

 

A wrestler in a fighting game still has to use basic fighting game tactics (Punch combos, guarding and jumping on a downed opponent etc etc) but only adds certain wrestling moves that would work in the principles of a fighting game. If Wolf could only do wrestling moves and had to pin or make his opponent submit to win, then he would be a ridiculously crap character to play as.

It's the same as a proper judo fighter. If he only had throws that truly represented the sport they would be grapples attempting to force the opponent over to try and score 'waza-ari's and 'ippon's it wouldn't work as the opponent (say a boxer or karate fighter) wouldn't have the same objectives, they wouldn't be able to counter and bash buttons to try to push him over instead. Characters such as wrestling or judo can only be loosely represented, and paul's representation was as loose as is possible. the fighting styles in Tekken today are still mish-mashes of styles and don't reflect any true disciplines.

Edited September 20, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

CANON MAN EXPLAIN VANNESSA'S MOVES PLEASE! AS IN RICK STROWD COPY!

 

Since I dunno most of the others here's my top 3

 

1; Heavy D! - boxing with attitude

2; Vannessa/Rick - almost identical moveset

3; King Lion/Shikioh - shame on you for forgetting him!! KING FIST!!

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

and once shes T.K.O. i'll steal her trousers 

I hope you have an excuse for saying this - as in, you're about 11, because even if we are only talking about games characters.it's not very funny and bordering on sexual assault.

Edited September 20, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

and once shes T.K.O. i'll steal her trousers 

I hope you have an excuse for saying this - as in, you're about 11, because even if we are only talking about games characters.it's not very funny and bordering on sexual assault.

um, what's with the attittude snk?

yer not funny.... lighten up

as for Violence he has every right to border

anywhere he wants... you're off topic

[Daeval]

And Goh uses Judo with the Atemi-waza (strikes) included, which are not typically taught to people who are learning for sport.

 

And yeah, Judo could be accurately represented in a fighting game.  However, the SPORT of Judo could not.  It is significantly different in that it is practiced to defeat other judokas who are aiming for the same thing: kazushi, throws, or pinning/chokes/locks.  That works better in a wrestling game.  Remember that Judo was originally developed as a general form of fighting, and also incorporated strikes and blocks.  It focused on grappling techniques because they were considered the most efficient ways to disable your opponent, but that doesn't mean they were the only options available.

Paul's moves in Tekken 1 weren't very judo, but that's what Namco said his fighting style was.

 

And no you couldn't put judo in a fighting game without adding some "out of place" striking attacks. Even a wrestling game would need some punchs and kicks.

Creating a character on a fighting game with ONLY throws and holds would be a terrible idea.

 

A wrestler in a fighting game still has to use basic fighting game tactics (Punch combos, guarding and jumping on a downed opponent etc etc) but only adds certain wrestling moves that would work in the principles of a fighting game. If Wolf could only do wrestling moves and had to pin or make his opponent submit to win, then he would be a ridiculously crap character to play as.

It's the same as a proper judo fighter. If he only had throws that truly represented the sport they would be grapples attempting to force the opponent over to try and score 'waza-ari's and 'ippon's it wouldn't work as the opponent (say a boxer or karate fighter) wouldn't have the same objectives, they wouldn't be able to counter and bash buttons to try to push him over instead. Characters such as wrestling or judo can only be loosely represented, and paul's representation was as loose as is possible. the fighting styles in Tekken today are still mish-mashes of styles and don't reflect any true disciplines.

 

First off, you contradicted yourself about Paul's style and the official word. You said in your previous post that manuals were crap, now you're saying that the "official" word is the basis for calling a style Judo that is "as loose as is possible" a representation. If the styles are only loosely represented AND "You should never listen to manuals," why insist that he uses Judo, just because that's what the "official" word is, when his moves clearly represent something else (8-way fist, other chinese arts) far more closely?

 

Secondly, about accurate Judo, a clarification of my last paragraph in the previous post... What you see in the olympics is the sport of judo, but Judo was not developed as a sport. It turned into that over time. It was designed as a self-defense art combining aspects of other arts. Having learned several styles in his time, the creator (Jigoro Kano) was not ignorant enough to ignore strikes as a vital part of self defense. However, his focus was on disabling an opponent quickly and without causing permanent damage. The idea was that this was better accomplished with throws, locks, and chokes. For this reason, the more "risky" striking techniques were only taught to very high level students, who were thought to have the self-control to use them carefully in practice and wisely in application. When western wrestlers came along and started pinning judokas, pins were introduced and the sport of judo wasn't far off. Nowadays, very few schools teach the original striking techniques, as nearly every school trains for the sport, where these are not used.

 

Knowing all that, it would be simple enough to create a traditional fighting game character who used Judo WITH the original striking techniques (assuming one of the designers could research them). Since fighting game characters don't typically pull their punches, it would make sense that a Judo based character used ALL of Judo, not just the techniques used in sport. This would NOT make them an innacurate representation of Judo, though they would be an innaccurate representation of the sport of judo. There is a distinction there. This is why Goh's style is sometimes listed as "Judo (with Atemi-Waza)."

 

Edit: Sorry, don't mean to sound flamey or anything, I just got the impression that you were ignoring a lot of what was said. Maybe I was unclear the first time. Again, no hard feelings, just a clarification.

Edited September 21, 2004 by Daeval

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

First off, you contradicted yourself about Paul's style and the official word.  You said in your previous post that manuals were crap, now you're saying that the "official" word is the basis for calling a style Judo that is "as loose as is possible" a representation.  If the styles are only loosely represented AND "You should never listen to manuals," why insist that he uses Judo, just because that's what the "official" word is, when his moves clearly represent something else (8-way fist, other chinese arts) far more closely?

 

Secondly, about accurate Judo, a clarification of my last paragraph in the previous post...  What you see in the olympics is the sport of judo, but Judo was not developed as a sport.  It turned into that over time.  It was designed as a self-defense art combining aspects of other arts.  Having learned several styles in his time, the creator (Jigoro Kano) was not ignorant enough to ignore strikes as a vital part of self defense.  However, his focus was on disabling an opponent quickly and without causing permanent damage.  The idea was that this was better accomplished with throws, locks, and chokes.  For this reason, the more "risky" striking techniques were only taught to very high level students, who were thought to have the self-control to use them carefully in practice and wisely in application.  When western wrestlers came along and started pinning judokas, pins were introduced and the sport of judo wasn't far off.  Nowadays, very few schools teach the original striking techniques, as nearly every school trains for the sport, where these are not used.

 

Knowing all that, it would be simple enough to create a traditional fighting game character who used Judo WITH the original striking techniques (assuming one of the designers could research them).  Since fighting game characters don't typically pull their punches, it would make sense that a Judo based character used ALL of Judo, not just the techniques used in sport.  This would NOT make them an innacurate representation of Judo, though they would be an innaccurate representation of the sport of judo.  There is a distinction there.  This is why Goh's style is sometimes listed as "Judo (with Atemi-Waza)."

 

Edit: Sorry, don't mean to sound flamey or anything, I just got the impression that you were ignoring a lot of what was said.  Maybe I was unclear the first time.  Again, no hard feelings, just a clarification.

 

I didn’t contradict myself my brother (for indeed Shin_Nihon_Kikaku is TWO people ) wrote the bit about ‘that’s what namco said his fighting style was’ by mistake. They didn’t. I never read it in a manual. All this comes from the fact that I’m a designer, and I look at what a developer was attempting with any particular aspect of a game, a character concept, a background, a play mechanic, a story element. It’s my job to understand what a developer was aiming for. With Paul I came to the conclusion that he was supposed to be using a Judo type style. (due to his throws and a few other subtelties). This makes sense when viewed within the context that it was from a game created in the incredibly, naive mid-nineties (A time in which the renderings and concepts of even top-flight Japanese developers were often wide of the mark). It was of a more innocent age, a time when characters didn’t truly attempt to fit fighting styles, this came far later, when Tekken 3 decided to follow Virtua Fighter’s lead and introduced more believable styles, notably with their attempt at ‘Capoeira’ – interestingly enough it is at this time when Paul abandoned his original (weak) concept and veered off into the realms of being the Akira clone that he is today. This ‘realism’ only came into full effect when Vale Tudo and Boxing were introduced in Tekken 4, [Namco later stated that the prime concept in T4 was realism, which they felt was a poor decision, they are reverting to the un-realistic style of previous Tekkens with the advent of Tekken 5].

 

The only other character with a fighting style in Tekken 1 was King. Everyone knows that he was supposed to be a wrestler, but only a few of his moves were wrestling style moves. All King had was a few wrestling throws (about 4) and a dropkick. His other moves were nothing like wrestling moves. Every other character just had different types of random attacks, but they didn't really fit into any fighting style [Namco’s admission of the series only taking a realistic bent by Tekken 4’s introduction confirms this].

 

All this started because really, you misunderstood what I said. I said that Paul used a judo based style, I didn't say "he uses Judo".

 

I didn’t realise Judo as a sport differed as much from Judo as an art though (I now realise that any striking attacks that existed will have been removed by Olympic officials ass-footing around the issue of full-contact).

 

But still, there can’t be a real answer to this ‘disagreement’. And, really, who cares? It’s a triviality and I don’t feel that strongly about it (unlike a lot of the topics on this forum). Plus we are about a million miles off topic so I suggest we shake hands and end it right now.

Edited September 21, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

nice pre-flamewar lol...

you both have some good points tho

[Wizard]

it's a good debate. I am enjoying it.

[Sybarite Paladin AxL]

it's a good debate. I am enjoying it.

me too..

so many new things about judo and wrestling I didn't know

cool sig k'dash who's the purple dude?