The Best Wrestler in a Fighting Game

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

Do better your self then.

 

Cuz thats what I say to people who whine about something all the time <INSERT INPUT LAG JOKE HERE>. Seriously, do something, all you do is whine about why this character looks like a little child blah blah blah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It posted the same thing twice. Huh?

Edited October 5, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Wizard]

Do better your self then.

 

Cuz thats what I say to people who whine about something all the time <INSERT INPUT LAG JOKE HERE>. Seriously, do something, all you do is whine about why this character looks like a little child blah blah blah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I AM doing better myself, that's the whole frickin' point. Do you not remember I'm a designer myself? That's why I get p!ssed and point out stuff like this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know you are one, but what have you done that has gotten any attention yet at all? Nothing. Exactly my point, wheres the proof to back that up. Nowhere. As of right now until you do something constructive with that designer status your nothing.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

- I know you are one, but what have you done that has gotten any attention yet at all? Nothing. Exactly my point, wheres the proof to back that up. Nowhere. As of right now until you do something constructive with that designer status your nothing.

 

 

I've done plenty. Just because you haven't seen it, and therefore can't comprehend the significance of what I'm up to, don't think that it doesn't exist. What were SFII's designers doing before you'd heard of it, before anyone had been shown the game? Something constructive.

Edited October 5, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Agozer]

Nice going you two.

[Wizard]

I was 4 at the time SFII came out kthx.

 

SFII started off development in roughly around the end of 1988 and wasn't released until `91. The main reason it didn't come out early was because they felt the character roster was pale. Most of the designers either were writers, freelance or otherwise or artists (AKIMAN and Eiji for example were just guys drawing before they got picked up by their respected companies) or others from other Capcom divisions.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

King was a guy in tights with an animal mask.  I can't think of any off the top of my head (but I'm not a big wrestling fan), but that's not exactly groundbreaking enough to attribute Tizoc's design to him as well.  Tizoc has much more character, IMO.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It took me a long time to reply to this, I've been wanting to reply but I just couldn’t be bothered to type it up.

 

Anyway, the whole history of this is rather convoluted but the fact remains, Tizoc is nothing BUT a copy of King.

 

Namco based the King character on a few things, most obviously on the legendary Japanese wrestler, Satoru Sayama, whose character was called 'Tiger Mask'. King is a straight up reference to this wrestler.

 

Sayama, in turn, had based his wrestling creation on a Japanese wrestling themed cartoon by Ikki Kajiwara titled (appropriately enough) Tiger Mask. The character created for this cartoon was Kajiwara’s (genius) take on the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers’. Although I think there’s a Japanese legend/myth accountable somewhere along the way.

 

Believe it or not, Capcom’s original character design concept for Blanka was a muscular shirtless man with a Tiger’s face. I believe this was based on the same Japanese legend (of a half man/half tiger) that spawned the garbage MK character Kintaro.

 

 

Tizoc looks more like the stylised cartoon creation in Tiger Mask (with the massive muscles and flowing feathers (in the cartoon’s case, a cape). Whereas King looks more like Sayama’s version. (as he would, being in a semi realistic game and as Sayama’s wrestler was the sole inspiration for King, not the cartoon)

 

Tizoc might look cool, compared to the vaguely humorous looking King (what with the choice of animal for the mask he wears being better overall) but it still doesn’t change the fact that he's a poorly disguised rip-off and that you can’t get much more of an idea than King, whether he himself was blatantly influenced by something else or not. King was still the ‘inspiration’ for the ‘not very inspired’ Tizoc.

Edited October 5, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[veristic]

Does Anakaris count? I'd say it's a draw between Anakaris and Tizoc.

[Gryph]

Does Anakaris count?  I'd say it's a draw between Anakaris and Tizoc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Darkstalker's characters defy normal classifications.

[Daeval]

King was a guy in tights with an animal mask.  I can't think of any off the top of my head (but I'm not a big wrestling fan), but that's not exactly groundbreaking enough to attribute Tizoc's design to him as well.  Tizoc has much more character, IMO.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It took me a long time to reply to this, I've been wanting to reply but I just couldn’t be bothered to type it up.

 

Anyway, the whole history of this is rather convoluted but the fact remains, Tizoc is nothing BUT a copy of King.

 

Namco based the King character on a few things, most obviously on the legendary Japanese wrestler, Satoru Sayama, whose character was called 'Tiger Mask'. King is a straight up reference to this wrestler.

 

Sayama, in turn, had based his wrestling creation on a Japanese wrestling themed cartoon by Ikki Kajiwara titled (appropriately enough) Tiger Mask. The character created for this cartoon was Kajiwara’s (genius) take on the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers’. Although I think there’s a Japanese legend/myth accountable somewhere along the way.

 

Believe it or not, Capcom’s original character design concept for Blanka was a muscular shirtless man with a Tiger’s face. I believe this was based on the same Japanese legend (of a half man/half tiger) that spawned the garbage MK character Kintaro.

 

 

Tizoc looks more like the stylised cartoon creation in Tiger Mask (with the massive muscles and flowing feathers (in the cartoon’s case, a cape). Whereas King looks more like Sayama’s version. (as he would, being in a semi realistic game and as Sayama’s wrestler was the sole inspiration for King, not the cartoon)

 

Tizoc might look cool, compared to the vaguely humorous looking King (what with the choice of animal for the mask he wears being better overall) but it still doesn’t change the fact that he's a poorly disguised rip-off and that you can’t get much more of an idea than King, whether he himself was blatantly influenced by something else or not. King was still the ‘inspiration’ for the ‘not very inspired’ Tizoc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You realize you just totally backed me up, right?

 

My whole point was that King was not original enough to get credit for Tizoc's design. What you've said illustrates this perfectly:

 

King was based very heavily on an existing character. Since the "masked wrestler" existed before King, in the form of "Tiger Mask" and "the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers’," Tizoc's design should rightfully be attributed to THEM, the original Masked Wrestlers. NOT to King, who was just borrowed from those earlier designs.

 

 

BTW, out of curiosity, who do you work for as a designer? And what schooling/experience helped you land the job? I'm working towards that myself and am interested in how others broke into the rather difficult field..

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

King was a guy in tights with an animal mask.  I can't think of any off the top of my head (but I'm not a big wrestling fan), but that's not exactly groundbreaking enough to attribute Tizoc's design to him as well.  Tizoc has much more character, IMO.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It took me a long time to reply to this, I've been wanting to reply but I just couldn’t be bothered to type it up.

 

Anyway, the whole history of this is rather convoluted but the fact remains, Tizoc is nothing BUT a copy of King.

 

Namco based the King character on a few things, most obviously on the legendary Japanese wrestler, Satoru Sayama, whose character was called 'Tiger Mask'. King is a straight up reference to this wrestler.

 

Sayama, in turn, had based his wrestling creation on a Japanese wrestling themed cartoon by Ikki Kajiwara titled (appropriately enough) Tiger Mask. The character created for this cartoon was Kajiwara’s (genius) take on the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers’. Although I think there’s a Japanese legend/myth accountable somewhere along the way.

 

Believe it or not, Capcom’s original character design concept for Blanka was a muscular shirtless man with a Tiger’s face. I believe this was based on the same Japanese legend (of a half man/half tiger) that spawned the garbage MK character Kintaro.

 

 

Tizoc looks more like the stylised cartoon creation in Tiger Mask (with the massive muscles and flowing feathers (in the cartoon’s case, a cape). Whereas King looks more like Sayama’s version. (as he would, being in a semi realistic game and as Sayama’s wrestler was the sole inspiration for King, not the cartoon)

 

Tizoc might look cool, compared to the vaguely humorous looking King (what with the choice of animal for the mask he wears being better overall) but it still doesn’t change the fact that he's a poorly disguised rip-off and that you can’t get much more of an idea than King, whether he himself was blatantly influenced by something else or not. King was still the ‘inspiration’ for the ‘not very inspired’ Tizoc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You realize you just totally backed me up, right?

 

My whole point was that King was not original enough to get credit for Tizoc's design. What you've said illustrates this perfectly:

 

King was based very heavily on an existing character. Since the "masked wrestler" existed before King, in the form of "Tiger Mask" and "the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers’," Tizoc's design should rightfully be attributed to THEM, the original Masked Wrestlers. NOT to King, who was just borrowed from those earlier designs.

 

 

BTW, out of curiosity, who do you work for as a designer? And what schooling/experience helped you land the job? I'm working towards that myself and am interested in how others broke into the rather difficult field..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm not really disagreeing with what you said but King IS original in the games field (you even said yourself that you didn't know of King's true inspiration, so to you he should have been considered mighty original). The problem is, after King, it's already been done, so you have to assume SNK got it from a rival game. King is a widely recognized character from an extremely popular, mainstream series. Garou is far more 'underground', why wouldn't SNK feel the need to copy some of the successful elements?

Edited October 6, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Daeval]

You realize you just totally backed me up, right? 

 

My whole point was that King was not original enough to get credit for Tizoc's design.  What you've said illustrates this perfectly: 

 

King was based very heavily on an existing character.  Since the "masked wrestler" existed before King, in the form of "Tiger Mask" and "the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers’," Tizoc's design should rightfully be attributed to THEM, the original Masked Wrestlers.  NOT to King, who was just borrowed from those earlier designs.

 

 

BTW, out of curiosity, who do you work for as a designer?  And what schooling/experience helped you land the job?  I'm working towards that myself and am interested in how others broke into the rather difficult field..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm not really disagreeing with what you said but King IS original in the games field (you even said yourself that you didn't know of King's true inspiration, so to you he should have been considered mighty original). The problem is, after King, it's already been done, so you have to assume SNK got it from a rival game. King is a widely recognized character from an extremely popular, mainstream series. Garou is far more 'underground', why wouldn't SNK feel the need to copy some of the successful elements?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But I DID know of King's true inspiriation: the "the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers'." I didn't know which specific one he was based on, but that character was only one of many. King was obviously borrowed from the large, relatively well known group of actual masked wrestlers. He owes his character design entirely to the actual masked wrestlers.

 

Tizoc, aside from being a "masked wrestler," bears entirely no resemblance to King. The mask is dramatically different and done in a different style, his body and movements are much more exaggerated, and his background is that of the mexican masked wrestler El Santo, rather than King's tekken-intwined plot. Seeing as the "masked wrestler" schtick is the only real similarity, and SNKs designers were likely exposed to that long before King, the credit for Tizoc most obviously goes to the actual masked wrestlers. Also consider Ramon, borrowed from the same scene that produced El Santo.

 

When something appears in a video game, it doesn't separate it from the rest of the entertainment world. Just because Namco put a masked wrestler in a game doesn't mean that all future masked wrestlers are based on that one. We don't attribute every video game barbarian or wizard to Gauntlet or some other old title. When an image is well established outside of the video game medium, people can draw from those other sources independently of each other. As long as the resulting images are not overly similar, as clearly King and Tizoc are not, there's no reason to assume the latter one is based on the former, when a much larger body of inspiration exists outside of the video game world.