shin_nihon_kikaku Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 You realize you just totally backed me up, right? My whole point was that King was not original enough to get credit for Tizoc's design. What you've said illustrates this perfectly: King was based very heavily on an existing character. Since the "masked wrestler" existed before King, in the form of "Tiger Mask" and "the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers’," Tizoc's design should rightfully be attributed to THEM, the original Masked Wrestlers. NOT to King, who was just borrowed from those earlier designs. BTW, out of curiosity, who do you work for as a designer? And what schooling/experience helped you land the job? I'm working towards that myself and am interested in how others broke into the rather difficult field..<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not really disagreeing with what you said but King IS original in the games field (you even said yourself that you didn't know of King's true inspiration, so to you he should have been considered mighty original). The problem is, after King, it's already been done, so you have to assume SNK got it from a rival game. King is a widely recognized character from an extremely popular, mainstream series. Garou is far more 'underground', why wouldn't SNK feel the need to copy some of the successful elements?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> But I DID know of King's true inspiriation: the "the whole phenomenon of ‘masked wrestlers'." I didn't know which specific one he was based on, but that character was only one of many. King was obviously borrowed from the large, relatively well known group of actual masked wrestlers. He owes his character design entirely to the actual masked wrestlers. Tizoc, aside from being a "masked wrestler," bears entirely no resemblance to King. The mask is dramatically different and done in a different style, his body and movements are much more exaggerated, and his background is that of the mexican masked wrestler El Santo, rather than King's tekken-intwined plot. Seeing as the "masked wrestler" schtick is the only real similarity, and SNKs designers were likely exposed to that long before King, the credit for Tizoc most obviously goes to the actual masked wrestlers. Also consider Ramon, borrowed from the same scene that produced El Santo. When something appears in a video game, it doesn't separate it from the rest of the entertainment world. Just because Namco put a masked wrestler in a game doesn't mean that all future masked wrestlers are based on that one. We don't attribute every video game barbarian or wizard to Gauntlet or some other old title. When an image is well established outside of the video game medium, people can draw from those other sources independently of each other. As long as the resulting images are not overly similar, as clearly King and Tizoc are not, there's no reason to assume the latter one is based on the former, when a much larger body of inspiration exists outside of the video game world.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> He isn't just a masked wrestler. Stinger and Astro from Slam Masters were not progenitors of King. The idea of having a mask that looked exactly like a real animal's face, as opposed to being an otherwise boring/characterless/generic mask was created by an outside party and then brought to the game scene via Namco's tribute. There are no other wrestlers who wear animal based masks, anywhere. Then Tizoc shows up. More than just a coincidence. Of course there's the possibility that he could have been influenced by something other than a game, something neither of us has seen, but it's also equally possible that he was developed in the simplest, most obvious way. All pretty irrelevant anyway, neither of us knows for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeval Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 He isn't just a masked wrestler. Stinger and Astro from Slam Masters were not progenitors of King. The idea of having a mask that looked exactly like a real animal's face, as opposed to being an otherwise boring/characterless/generic mask was created by an outside party and then brought to the game scene via Namco's tribute. There are no other wrestlers who wear animal based masks, anywhere. Then Tizoc shows up. More than just a coincidence. Of course there's the possibility that he could have been influenced by something other than a game, something neither of us has seen, but it's also equally possible that he was developed in the simplest, most obvious way. All pretty irrelevant anyway, neither of us knows for sure.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right, we can't know for sure without word from SNKs designers. But, I'm going to continue this debate because it's fun. Again, it doesn't matter if King was first in a video game, he wasn't first. It's nonsense to say that, just because he's in a video game, King is a more valid inspiration than another popular character (Tiger Mask) who's been around in various forms for over 30 years. Another Illustration: If a new game came out featuring a short asian guy with a bowl haircut and a yellow jumpsuit, would you say he was a rip off of Law? Assuming Law was the first Bruce Lee tribute in a video game (which he's not, but we'll assume for the sake of argument), you would be crazy to assume that the designers were more inspired by Law than by the established image of Bruce Lee. Similarly, it's silly to say that Tizoc is based on the animal-head image of King, when the animal-head image was established 30+ years ago with Tiger Mask. Again, their only similarity is something that was established long before King was around. The "most obvious" design inspiration of Tizoc seems to be a love for the masked wrestling mayhem of classic heroic characters like El Santo and Tiger Mask, combined with the bird-mask imagery of ancient south america and mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatal Rose Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Ian La Cream is the best wrestler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 You are gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLasticSlug Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 (edited) i really dont care for wrestlers in fighting games, they piss me off with their grappling (is that what you call them) moves that are usually stupid, slow and cumbersom and way over powered. but i voted for zangief, even though i dont like him, his moves are so fuken powerful. Edited October 7, 2004 by PLasticSlug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeval Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 You should have given that thing hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[S4]The Phantom Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I am guessing somebody brought this up before this, but Angel in Kof is a wrestler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatal Rose Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 You are gay.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why are you always so rude to me Ian La Cream? All I have ever done was try to be a nice guy, I have always been there when you needed a shoulder to cry on now haven’t I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agozer Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 You are gay. Why are you always so rude to me Ian La Cream? All I have ever done was try to be a nice guy, I have always been there when you needed a shoulder to cry on now haven’t I?Uhhh... Maybe because you call him a hentai fanboy and Ian La Cream? Wolf is the best VG wrestler ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatal Rose Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 You are gay.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why are you always so rude to me Ian La Cream? All I have ever done was try to be a nice guy, I have always been there when you needed a shoulder to cry on now haven’t I?<{POST_SNAPBACK}>Uhhh... Maybe because you call him a hentai fanboy and Ian La Cream? Wolf is the best VG wrestler ever.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>I was gonna vote for Wolf but I noticed hugo was getting no love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agozer Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 You are gay. Why are you always so rude to me Ian La Cream? All I have ever done was try to be a nice guy, I have always been there when you needed a shoulder to cry on now haven’t I?Uhhh... Maybe because you call him a hentai fanboy and Ian La Cream? Wolf is the best VG wrestler ever.I was gonna vote for Wolf but I noticed hugo was getting no love.Did you vote for Huge just to pity him or do you actually like him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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