The Paul (From Tekken) Judo/Not Judo Thing

[Agozer]

it's juat a game with 3d rendering people!!! damn u people are crazy but if ur talking about the comic or w/e then it'll be ok but not the game. just play and dis people

I was just aabout to post the same thing.

[KyokugenKiss]

can admins close this topic out of its sheer lameness factor?

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

Aren't all the tekken character arts modifications of actual martial arts???

Yeah, and Paul's is based on judo. Just as Kings is based on wrestling and Brian is based on kickboxing. Both (until Tekken 4 at least) were crap representations of the actual style as they only had a few moves from their particular style and lots of other moves thrown in. Wolf is as good a representation of a wrestler as you can get in a fighting game, obviously he has a few out of place wrestling techniques to make sure he plays similar to the other fighters, but most of his moves could be seen in an actual wrestling match. King however, is a far less "realistic" take on the wrestling fighting style (with his twirling dropkicks, flying flaming, ax handle smash and head first dives etc). The arts in Tekken are incredibly stylised, so many of Paul's techniques look judo influenced but are stylised and enhanced which makes you unable to spot the similarities.

 

Comparing King with Wolf, proves that VF has the better take on fighting styles, but comparing Paul and Goh's judo styles highlights even more difference. But that's why they say Paul is only judo based (as he will have been that way initially but developed different techniques that took him further and further away from his starting concept) whereas King is just - Pro Wrestling.

 

BTW: Cominus is right (he was harsh, but you may have deserved it), Paul's style is most definitely 3 or more fighting styles mixed together, but his fighting style looks as if he learned judo, wanted to kick people's ass even more, and then compounded his ability by incorporating more powerful techniques from traditional karate and other styles. Hence "Judo-based Martial Arts".

I think the pinacle of Paul's judo was in Tekken 2 - when they added more judo style moves, and before they added the Akira style power attacks in 3 and 4.

In Tekken 2 it was very clear that he was using a base set of judo techniques(with less of the other styles mixed in at that point) with his takedown counters, his punch when opponents are down and his tackle (db LP + RP) to name a few.

 

Another reason why I thought Paul was judo was his look. His thick red gi (coloured the way lots of judo gi's are) with a logo on his back and the fact that he is an American/western competitor focusing on a style that is well known in the west. He isn't doing a martial art that would contradict his American roots, like some bizarre, unheard of art like Xinyi Liuhe Quan.

 

Also, bare in mind that this game (Tekken 1) was the first (almost) realistic fighting game where fighting styles could be part of the game (which was in an alpha phase of development with Virtua Fighter) and so I was trying to look for fighting styles in Namco's rival game. At this time, games never really tried to achieve proper fighting styles so I didn't have anything to compare this to and thought Paul's style was most like judo.

 

Even VF was appalling with fighting styles back then. Both VF1 and Tekken1 were almost like Mortal Kombat with how characters had the same basic moves but with 5 or 6 special attacks. These few specials were the only thing that set the characters apart (except for their appearance) and therefore the only way to judge the fighting style. Jacky was suppose to be a JKD fighter (and people all picked up on this, I know I did) and all he had (that were even slightly JKD based) was a double roundhouse, a knee (lots of characters also had this move), a thrusting kick and a special persue attack when the opponent was down. Even his throws seemed nothing like JKD and more like rough wrestling slams. Unless you feel that a flying backflip kick is JKD, Jacky was only very slightly more JKD than Paul was judo. Games in those days were all that bad at fighting styles.

 

Namco did just enough for my mind to realise they were aiming for Judo and not enough for you to realise it. It means I understood games and designers better than you ever will (I don't care how much you know about real fighting arts).

 

Bottom line is: In 1994 I thought Jacky and Sarah were JKD fighters, I thought King and Wolf were wrestlers, and I thought Paul was a Judo fighter. You disputed that he was even meant to be for ages (the reason you posted again and again and why the argument has gone on as long as it has, review your posts that comprise this argument in the early stages if you don't believe it)

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

it's juat a game with 3d rendering people!!! damn u people are crazy but if ur talking about the comic or w/e then it'll be ok but not the game. just play and dis people

Why is talking about comics OK, but discussing games isn't? Just because you like comics more than games? Well I don't.

[Agozer]

can admins close this topic out of its sheer lameness factor?

Yes.

 

 

Closed for the time being.

 

EDIT: Opened again.

Edited September 22, 2004 by Agozer

[Daeval]

I figured this was closed because it looked 'tense' with flame, though it may have been just a little premature.

 

Regardless, I'm done "debating" with you, SNK. You made some interesting points, but you're still claiming victory over something I never contested. You've mentioned his American look, which is something I didn't give much thought to, as well as his Gi, which was thoughtful. You even talk about how most characters at the time didn't really look like their styles. OK, that's cool...

 

Then you jump right back on the wrong train, talking about what the designers were trying to go for, and claiming once again that I ever argued against this. For the last time, I said he didn't look like someone doing Judo. I never, in any of my posts, claimed that the designers did not mean for him to be judo-based. It's taken far too long for you to grasp this, so I'm done with the discussion.

 

If a Gi and two throws out of 18 moves in Tekken 1 are enough to claim Judo-based to you, that's a matter of opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

It was fun while it lasted. Good day sir.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

Well I saw judo in Paul, you didn't. It was just a case of me saying why I thought or why he is judo based.

 

Plus - Ryu only gained his judo style Ryu throw in SF3. In all the other street fighters, he had a basic shoulder throw that threw them way accross the screen.

 

So back then, only Paul and had the judo throw

[Wizard]

It's all personal style each his/her own.

 

 

I win.

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

Some of the other points that I couldn't include after the topic was closed -

 

 

 

1. (another 'tip-off' to the fact) It wasn't just the gi, it was this - The only real arts an American would find accessible and therefore easy to focus on mastering would be karate, judo, tae kwon do, muay thai etcetra - the arts most westerners have heard of. So logically Paul would have to be closest to one of these. Guess which one Namco chose?

 

2. (basing characters on real styles) VF2 took it to another level entirely with Lion's crane (praying mantis) style, and Shun's drunken kung-fu influenced by the 'comedic' art Jackie Chan made popular in the 1978 Drunken Master movie. It took until well into 1996 for games to even come to the realization that real fighting styles could be represented more accurately when aikido and sumo wrestling were fully developed for VF3. Ever since this point games have latched onto real development of 'proper' styles rather than very loosely basing them on something that actually existed (as was the case with Paul and many others of that era). Since then, fighting games don't add new character's unless they fit into a specific new easily definable category - we've had capoiera, tae kwon do, boxing, vale tudo (twice), judo (done correctly), and shaolin kung-fu. They do it so well now the difference between Paul’s use of judo and Goh’s is incredibly vast because now they are actually trying to feature styles as perfectly as is possible, so you don’t have to look hard to spot them.

 

3. Two more character's that use judo (badly) are the first ever judo character, Ryoko (from Fighter's History then later, World Heroes 2) and Goro Daimon (KOF). Both use as much judo or even less than paul, but are very stylised with "silly" moves such as pounding the floor (Daimon), flaming spinning piledriver type throws (Ryoko) and phoenix smashers (Paul). The point being, if you knew how games designers worked back then, it was dead easy to see that paul was another judo character.

 

EDIT - and two(?) throws, it was FAR more moves than that...but now I'm thinking I may have got some of the moves from Tekken 2 (counters and other holds) mixed up with the pathetic amount he originally had in T1, but I definitely recall turning to my brother during a game of T1 years ago and relaying that paul used a judo based style, so despite the fact that he developed further from his base style (with hakkyoku-ken moves) he STILL incorporated new judo type moves (throws) in the sequels right up to present day Tekken 4.

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[shin_nihon_kikaku]

we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's my line...! (I was planning on ending this discussion with it a few times) Except the last time I used it (on a different forum) the guy didn't understand what it meant. Hmm....

Edited September 22, 2004 by shin_nihon_kikaku

[Agozer]

I thought of contributing something now that this topic is open again...

 

Wasn't it K´dash who said that fighting styles based loose on their real arts? In contrast some of you say that it's the moves are exactly the same... So which one is it? Or is it something the developers just pick?